Discussion:
OT: WMD Finally Found...For Real
(too old to reply)
Harry Krause
2004-01-02 10:44:51 UTC
Permalink
This is an absolutely fascinating article


From the December 29, 2003 edition -
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p02s01-usju.html
Christian Science Monitor

The terror threat at home, often overlooked
As the media focus on international terror, a Texan pleads guilty to
possessing a weapon of mass destruction.

By Kris Axtman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

HOUSTON - It began as a misdelivered envelope and developed into the
most extensive domestic terrorism investigation since the Oklahoma City
bombing.

Last month, an east Texas man pleaded guilty to possession of a weapon
of mass destruction. Inside the home and storage facilities of William
Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing
thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of
ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist
and antigovernment literature.

"Without question, it ranks at the very top of all domestic terrorist
arrests in the past 20 years in terms of the lethality of the arsenal,"
says Daniel Levitas, author of "The Terrorist Next Door: The Militia
Movement and the Radical Right."

But outside Tyler, Texas, the case is almost unknown. In the past nine
months, there have been two government press releases and a handful of
local stories, but no press conference and no coverage in the national
newspapers.

Experts say the case highlights the increased cooperation and quicker
response by US agencies since Sept. 11. But others say it points up just
how political the terror war is. "There is no value for the Bush
administration to highlighting domestic terrorism right now," says
Robert Jensen, a journalism professor at the University of Texas in
Austin. "But there are significant political benefits to highlighting
foreign terrorists, especially when trying to whip up support for war."

Mr. Levitas goes even further: "The government has a severe case of
tunnel vision when it comes to domestic terrorism. I have no doubt
whatsoever that had Krar and his compatriots been Arab-Americans or
linked to some violent Islamic fundamentalist group, we would have heard
from John Ashcroft himself."

The case began in the fall of 2002 when a package bound for New Jersey
was misdelivered to a New York address. The family inadvertently opened
the package and found fake identification badges, including Department
of Defense and United Nations IDs. The FBI eventually tracked the
package back to Mr. Krar in Noonday, Texas.

The cache of weapons and bombs was found when the FBI served a search
warrant in April of this year. Krar and his common-law wife, Judith
Bruey, and the receiver of the package, New Jersey Militia member Edward
Feltus, were arrested.

All three have pleaded guilty to separate counts and are awaiting
sentencing.

Brit Featherston, the assistant US attorney in charge of the case, says
it was Krar and Ms. Bruey's connections to white-supremacist groups that
prompted further investigation. "Any little town has worse criminals on
paper than these two. But because of their background, the red flags
were flying all over the place - especially after Sept. 11," says Mr.
Featherston, in the eastern district of Texas.

Before Sept. 11, he says, the case most likely would have been worked as
a false-ID case and ended there. Instead, dozens of law-enforcement
agencies were involved and hundreds of subpoenas were served. "This case
was very high priority," says Featherston.

Still, investigators have been unable to answer questions such as: Where
was the sodium-cyanide bomb destined? And were the weapons being
prepared for a group or sold individually? Featherston says the
investigation is ongoing and won't end until these questions are answered.

Experts say the case is important not only because of what it says about
increased government cooperation, but also because it shows how serious
a threat the country faces from within. "The lesson in the Krar case is
that we have to always be concerned about domestic terrorism. It would
be a terrible mistake to believe that terrorism always comes from
outside," says Mark Potok at the Southern Poverty Law Center in
Montgomery, Ala.

The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five
years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark
Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League.
"We do have home-grown hate in the United States, people who are just as
ill-disposed to the American government as any international terrorist
group," he says.

*Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing
extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The
Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002.*

(As I have noted many times in the past, the threat to America comes
from the conservative right-wingers. This is more confirmation. HK)


While Mr. Pitcavage was surprised the Krar case did not receive more
attention, "It is a fact that a lot of stories involving domestic
extremists get undercovered," he says. He points to a case he calls one
of "the major terrorist plots of the 1990s" in which militia from around
the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military
base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning
of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives.
"There was virtually no media coverage of that incident either," says
Pitcavage.

Featherston speculates that the Krar case got little attention because
the arrests were made just after the war began in Iraq. "Excuse me, a
chemical weapon was found in the home state of George Bush," says
Levitas. "I'm not saying the Justice Department deliberately decided to
downplay the story because they thought it might be embarrassing to the
US government if weapons of mass destruction were found in America
before they were found in Iraq. But I am saying it was a mistake not to
give this higher profile."

For his part, Krar has remained silent. He will most likely be sentenced
sometime in February, and could receive up to life in prison. His
attorney, Tonda Curry, says the US government has no reason to be afraid
of him. "It looks a whole lot worse than it is. He had a lot of things
that most people would never have any desire to have, but much of what
he had was perfectly legal."

Full HTML version of this story which may include photos, graphics, and
related links
--
Email sent to ***@yahoo.com is never read.
Don White
2004-01-02 12:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Yes sir...the enemy is within.
Wonder if the gun culture in some of those states fosters this kind of
behavior?
Post by Harry Krause
This is an absolutely fascinating article
From the December 29, 2003 edition -
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p02s01-usju.html
Christian Science Monitor
The terror threat at home, often overlooked
As the media focus on international terror, a Texan pleads guilty to
possessing a weapon of mass destruction.
By Kris Axtman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
HOUSTON - It began as a misdelivered envelope and developed into the
most extensive domestic terrorism investigation since the Oklahoma City
bombing.
Last month, an east Texas man pleaded guilty to possession of a weapon
of mass destruction. Inside the home and storage facilities of William
Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing
thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of
ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist
and antigovernment literature.
"Without question, it ranks at the very top of all domestic terrorist
arrests in the past 20 years in terms of the lethality of the arsenal,"
says Daniel Levitas, author of "The Terrorist Next Door: The Militia
Movement and the Radical Right."
But outside Tyler, Texas, the case is almost unknown. In the past nine
months, there have been two government press releases and a handful of
local stories, but no press conference and no coverage in the national
newspapers.
Experts say the case highlights the increased cooperation and quicker
response by US agencies since Sept. 11. But others say it points up just
how political the terror war is. "There is no value for the Bush
administration to highlighting domestic terrorism right now," says
Robert Jensen, a journalism professor at the University of Texas in
Austin. "But there are significant political benefits to highlighting
foreign terrorists, especially when trying to whip up support for war."
Mr. Levitas goes even further: "The government has a severe case of
tunnel vision when it comes to domestic terrorism. I have no doubt
whatsoever that had Krar and his compatriots been Arab-Americans or
linked to some violent Islamic fundamentalist group, we would have heard
from John Ashcroft himself."
The case began in the fall of 2002 when a package bound for New Jersey
was misdelivered to a New York address. The family inadvertently opened
the package and found fake identification badges, including Department
of Defense and United Nations IDs. The FBI eventually tracked the
package back to Mr. Krar in Noonday, Texas.
The cache of weapons and bombs was found when the FBI served a search
warrant in April of this year. Krar and his common-law wife, Judith
Bruey, and the receiver of the package, New Jersey Militia member Edward
Feltus, were arrested.
All three have pleaded guilty to separate counts and are awaiting
sentencing.
Brit Featherston, the assistant US attorney in charge of the case, says
it was Krar and Ms. Bruey's connections to white-supremacist groups that
prompted further investigation. "Any little town has worse criminals on
paper than these two. But because of their background, the red flags
were flying all over the place - especially after Sept. 11," says Mr.
Featherston, in the eastern district of Texas.
Before Sept. 11, he says, the case most likely would have been worked as
a false-ID case and ended there. Instead, dozens of law-enforcement
agencies were involved and hundreds of subpoenas were served. "This case
was very high priority," says Featherston.
Still, investigators have been unable to answer questions such as: Where
was the sodium-cyanide bomb destined? And were the weapons being
prepared for a group or sold individually? Featherston says the
investigation is ongoing and won't end until these questions are answered.
Experts say the case is important not only because of what it says about
increased government cooperation, but also because it shows how serious
a threat the country faces from within. "The lesson in the Krar case is
that we have to always be concerned about domestic terrorism. It would
be a terrible mistake to believe that terrorism always comes from
outside," says Mark Potok at the Southern Poverty Law Center in
Montgomery, Ala.
The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five
years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark
Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League.
"We do have home-grown hate in the United States, people who are just as
ill-disposed to the American government as any international terrorist
group," he says.
*Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing
extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The
Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002.*
(As I have noted many times in the past, the threat to America comes
from the conservative right-wingers. This is more confirmation. HK)
While Mr. Pitcavage was surprised the Krar case did not receive more
attention, "It is a fact that a lot of stories involving domestic
extremists get undercovered," he says. He points to a case he calls one
of "the major terrorist plots of the 1990s" in which militia from around
the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military
base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning
of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives.
"There was virtually no media coverage of that incident either," says
Pitcavage.
Featherston speculates that the Krar case got little attention because
the arrests were made just after the war began in Iraq. "Excuse me, a
chemical weapon was found in the home state of George Bush," says
Levitas. "I'm not saying the Justice Department deliberately decided to
downplay the story because they thought it might be embarrassing to the
US government if weapons of mass destruction were found in America
before they were found in Iraq. But I am saying it was a mistake not to
give this higher profile."
For his part, Krar has remained silent. He will most likely be sentenced
sometime in February, and could receive up to life in prison. His
attorney, Tonda Curry, says the US government has no reason to be afraid
of him. "It looks a whole lot worse than it is. He had a lot of things
that most people would never have any desire to have, but much of what
he had was perfectly legal."
Full HTML version of this story which may include photos, graphics, and
related links
--
Gene Kearns
2004-01-02 13:22:56 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:12:58 GMT, "Don White"
Post by Don White
Yes sir...the enemy is within.
Wonder if the gun culture in some of those states fosters this kind of
behavior?
Gun culture?

Another spokesman from the phobia people, no doubt.
--
Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
Doug Kanter
2004-01-02 15:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don White
Yes sir...the enemy is within.
Wonder if the gun culture in some of those states fosters this kind of
behavior?
What gun culture?
Joe
2004-01-04 15:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don White
Yes sir...the enemy is within.
Wonder if the gun culture in some of those states fosters this kind of
behavior?
You must mean the Democratic gun culture.

Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1
basskisser
2004-01-06 18:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by Don White
Yes sir...the enemy is within.
Wonder if the gun culture in some of those states fosters this kind of
behavior?
You must mean the Democratic gun culture.
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1
Try to answer this:
What political party, democrat, or republican, wants to undo the laws
governing gun ownership? What political party wants guns outlawed?
I know you are a Bush goose-stepper, but did you know that of the
people that area in prison right now for gun related crimes, an
overwhelming majority of them used guns that were either stolen from
proper owners, or borrowed from proper owners?
Gould 0738
2004-01-06 18:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by basskisser
Post by Joe
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1
I don't know if Bush won any counties where 100,00 people actually
live........just whole bunch of little ones. Not too many murders out in
Mayberry. :-)
Post by basskisser
What political party, democrat, or republican, wants to undo the laws
governing gun ownership? What political party wants guns outlawed?
Wouldn't seem to be the Democrats. Is it the Republicans?

From the DNC platform:

Strong and Sensible Gun Laws. A shocking level of gun violence on our streets
and in our schools has shown America the need to keep guns away from those who
shouldn't have them - in ways that respect the rights of hunters, sportsmen,
and legitimate gun owners.
The Columbine tragedy struck America's heart, but in its wake Republicans have
done nothing to keep guns away from those who should not have them.

Democrats believe that we should fight gun crime on all fronts - with stronger
laws and stronger enforcement. That's why Democrats fought and passed the Brady
Law and the Assault Weapons Ban. We increased federal, state, and local gun
crime prosecution by 22 percent since 1992. Now gun crime is down by 35
percent.

Now we must do even more. We need mandatory child safety locks, to protect our
children. We should require a photo license I.D., a full background check, and
a gun safety test to buy a new handgun in America. We support more federal gun
prosecutors, ATF agents and inspectors, and giving states and communities
another 10,000 prosecutors to fight gun crime.
Joe
2004-01-07 15:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by basskisser
Post by Joe
Post by Don White
Yes sir...the enemy is within.
Wonder if the gun culture in some of those states fosters this kind of
behavior?
You must mean the Democratic gun culture.
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1
What political party, democrat, or republican, wants to undo the laws
governing gun ownership?
You mean our Second Amendment right to bear arms?
Well the dems of course.
Post by basskisser
What political party wants guns outlawed?
Again the dems.
The assault weapon ban and Kennedy's attempt to tax ammo into oblivion are
two good examples, but there are many, many more.
Post by basskisser
I know you are a Bush goose-stepper, but did you know that of the
people that area in prison right now for gun related crimes, an
overwhelming majority of them used guns that were either stolen from
proper owners, or borrowed from proper owners?
So criminals steal guns from law abiding citizens and your solution is to
take away their guns?
Pretty ridiculous, but from you expected.
basskisser
2004-01-07 19:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
So criminals steal guns from law abiding citizens and your solution is to
take away their guns?
Pretty ridiculous, but from you expected.
Ridiculous? Please tell, JoeTechnician, how to fuck would criminals
"steal guns from law abiding citizens" if the law abiding citizens
didn't OWN them??? Holy shit, JoeTechnician, even YOU should be able
to to figure that one out!
Mike Powell
2004-01-31 17:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore: 13.2
Average Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Bush: 2.1
These "statistics" are wrong. The correct numbers are about:

Gore counties = 6.5
Bush counties = 4.1

See: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

-Mike P.

Jim Carter
2004-01-02 14:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Wow! What an awesome find! Now, most Americans can live in peace.
The Weapons of mass destruction have been found in USA.
Jim Carter
"The Boat"
Bayfield
Post by Harry Krause
This is an absolutely fascinating article
From the December 29, 2003 edition -
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p02s01-usju.html
Christian Science Monitor
The terror threat at home, often overlooked
As the media focus on international terror, a Texan pleads guilty to
possessing a weapon of mass destruction.
By Kris Axtman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
HOUSTON - It began as a misdelivered envelope and developed into the
most extensive domestic terrorism investigation since the Oklahoma City
bombing.
Last month, an east Texas man pleaded guilty to possession of a weapon
of mass destruction. Inside the home and storage facilities of William
Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing
thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of
ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist
and antigovernment literature.
"Without question, it ranks at the very top of all domestic terrorist
arrests in the past 20 years in terms of the lethality of the arsenal,"
says Daniel Levitas, author of "The Terrorist Next Door: The Militia
Movement and the Radical Right."
But outside Tyler, Texas, the case is almost unknown. In the past nine
months, there have been two government press releases and a handful of
local stories, but no press conference and no coverage in the national
newspapers.
Experts say the case highlights the increased cooperation and quicker
response by US agencies since Sept. 11. But others say it points up just
how political the terror war is. "There is no value for the Bush
administration to highlighting domestic terrorism right now," says
Robert Jensen, a journalism professor at the University of Texas in
Austin. "But there are significant political benefits to highlighting
foreign terrorists, especially when trying to whip up support for war."
Mr. Levitas goes even further: "The government has a severe case of
tunnel vision when it comes to domestic terrorism. I have no doubt
whatsoever that had Krar and his compatriots been Arab-Americans or
linked to some violent Islamic fundamentalist group, we would have heard
from John Ashcroft himself."
The case began in the fall of 2002 when a package bound for New Jersey
was misdelivered to a New York address. The family inadvertently opened
the package and found fake identification badges, including Department
of Defense and United Nations IDs. The FBI eventually tracked the
package back to Mr. Krar in Noonday, Texas.
The cache of weapons and bombs was found when the FBI served a search
warrant in April of this year. Krar and his common-law wife, Judith
Bruey, and the receiver of the package, New Jersey Militia member Edward
Feltus, were arrested.
All three have pleaded guilty to separate counts and are awaiting
sentencing.
Brit Featherston, the assistant US attorney in charge of the case, says
it was Krar and Ms. Bruey's connections to white-supremacist groups that
prompted further investigation. "Any little town has worse criminals on
paper than these two. But because of their background, the red flags
were flying all over the place - especially after Sept. 11," says Mr.
Featherston, in the eastern district of Texas.
Before Sept. 11, he says, the case most likely would have been worked as
a false-ID case and ended there. Instead, dozens of law-enforcement
agencies were involved and hundreds of subpoenas were served. "This case
was very high priority," says Featherston.
Still, investigators have been unable to answer questions such as: Where
was the sodium-cyanide bomb destined? And were the weapons being
prepared for a group or sold individually? Featherston says the
investigation is ongoing and won't end until these questions are answered.
Experts say the case is important not only because of what it says about
increased government cooperation, but also because it shows how serious
a threat the country faces from within. "The lesson in the Krar case is
that we have to always be concerned about domestic terrorism. It would
be a terrible mistake to believe that terrorism always comes from
outside," says Mark Potok at the Southern Poverty Law Center in
Montgomery, Ala.
The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five
years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark
Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League.
"We do have home-grown hate in the United States, people who are just as
ill-disposed to the American government as any international terrorist
group," he says.
*Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing
extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The
Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002.*
(As I have noted many times in the past, the threat to America comes
from the conservative right-wingers. This is more confirmation. HK)
While Mr. Pitcavage was surprised the Krar case did not receive more
attention, "It is a fact that a lot of stories involving domestic
extremists get undercovered," he says. He points to a case he calls one
of "the major terrorist plots of the 1990s" in which militia from around
the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military
base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning
of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives.
"There was virtually no media coverage of that incident either," says
Pitcavage.
Featherston speculates that the Krar case got little attention because
the arrests were made just after the war began in Iraq. "Excuse me, a
chemical weapon was found in the home state of George Bush," says
Levitas. "I'm not saying the Justice Department deliberately decided to
downplay the story because they thought it might be embarrassing to the
US government if weapons of mass destruction were found in America
before they were found in Iraq. But I am saying it was a mistake not to
give this higher profile."
For his part, Krar has remained silent. He will most likely be sentenced
sometime in February, and could receive up to life in prison. His
attorney, Tonda Curry, says the US government has no reason to be afraid
of him. "It looks a whole lot worse than it is. He had a lot of things
that most people would never have any desire to have, but much of what
he had was perfectly legal."
Full HTML version of this story which may include photos, graphics, and
related links
--
Doug Kanter
2004-01-02 15:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Carter
Wow! What an awesome find! Now, most Americans can live in peace.
The Weapons of mass destruction have been found in USA.
Jim Carter
And we didn't need Saddam's help to find this stuff, either.
John Gaquin
2004-01-02 16:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Krause
The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five
years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark
Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League.
This statement is outrageous on its face. The key would seem to be how Mr.
Pitcavage defines "domestic terrorist acts ". Is he really saying there
have been a greater number of terrorist acts within the United States,
perpetrated by Americans, than there have been outside the United States?
Post by Harry Krause
*Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing
extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The
Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002.*
Key word: estimates. Maybe correct, maybe not at all. Mr. Levitas has done
a lot of research and is recognized as an expert. But remember, he's also
selling books, and pumping numbers that are unverifyable is to his
advantage. And 250,000 "sympathizers"? What the hell does that mean?
Transparent and meaningless scare tactic to anyone who thinks. I'll bet
there were a couple of billion (with a 'B') people in the world who
"sympathized" with the plight of the Afghan and Iraqi peoples, but no one
did anything. Note the use of PC buzzwords -- "right-wing extremist" and
"hate groups". How are these defined in order to conduct an accurate count?
Post by Harry Krause
... one of "the major terrorist plots of the 1990s" in which militia from
around
Post by Harry Krause
the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military
base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning
of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives.
Whoa!! Sounds like a couple of Brigades or so, ready to launch an organized
attack! Are Mr. Pitcavage and the ADL going for objectivity here? I think
not. The "...militia from around the country [that] converged in central
Texas..." comprised two (2) persons who were arrested at the aforementioned
campground, one (1) elsewhere nearby, and an estimated five (5) back in
Colorado and Kansas. When arrested, the two (2) men had in their pickup
truck some [unspecified quantity] explosive material, a homemade silencer
made of plastic pipes, two rifles, five pistols and 1,600 rounds of
ammunition. They also had a cannon fuse, a container labeled "riot smoke," a
night vision scope, a radio scanner, two bulletproof vests, and a manual
entitled "Militia Soldiers Operations Handbook. Could they have done some
damage? Yes. A terrorist revolution aborning? You decide. Bear in mind,
they were parked in a campground with this stuff on the very day on which
they were planning their "attack". Sounds more like The Three Stooges than
Three Days of the Condor.


Fact: There are lots of right-wing whackos out there (real 'edge of the
envelope' types, Harry, not the conservatives you love to denigrate here in
rec.boats), predominantly comprising ill-educated, disorganized losers who
simply don't want to be responsible. Their cohesive ideology consists, for
the most part, of anti-social personality traits and being p-o'd at the
government, jews, or blacks, in no particular order, because they can't make
their lives work. To compare these yahoos to any mid-east or other moslem
terror organization is ludicrous. As you are well aware, there are any
number of these islam based groups who proudly trumpet their cause, are
organized, well trained, financed, focused, and dedicated to their ideology.
These people are frightening and effective, as their record over the past
thirty plus (30+) years indicates. The intermittent burps occasioned by a
few disaffected whack jobs from the lunatic fringe in this country are
hardly comparable.
Post by Harry Krause
(As I have noted many times in the past, the threat to America comes
from the conservative right-wingers. This is more confirmation. HK)
No, Harry, this does not rise to the level of "confirmation". Not even
close.
John H
2004-01-02 17:43:46 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:17:16 -0500, "John Gaquin"
Post by John Gaquin
Post by Harry Krause
The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five
years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark
Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League.
This statement is outrageous on its face. The key would seem to be how Mr.
Pitcavage defines "domestic terrorist acts ". Is he really saying there
have been a greater number of terrorist acts within the United States,
perpetrated by Americans, than there have been outside the United States?
Post by Harry Krause
*Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing
extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The
Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002.*
Key word: estimates. Maybe correct, maybe not at all. Mr. Levitas has done
a lot of research and is recognized as an expert. But remember, he's also
selling books, and pumping numbers that are unverifyable is to his
advantage. And 250,000 "sympathizers"? What the hell does that mean?
Transparent and meaningless scare tactic to anyone who thinks. I'll bet
there were a couple of billion (with a 'B') people in the world who
"sympathized" with the plight of the Afghan and Iraqi peoples, but no one
did anything. Note the use of PC buzzwords -- "right-wing extremist" and
"hate groups". How are these defined in order to conduct an accurate count?
Post by Harry Krause
... one of "the major terrorist plots of the 1990s" in which militia from
around
Post by Harry Krause
the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military
base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning
of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives.
Whoa!! Sounds like a couple of Brigades or so, ready to launch an organized
attack! Are Mr. Pitcavage and the ADL going for objectivity here? I think
not. The "...militia from around the country [that] converged in central
Texas..." comprised two (2) persons who were arrested at the aforementioned
campground, one (1) elsewhere nearby, and an estimated five (5) back in
Colorado and Kansas. When arrested, the two (2) men had in their pickup
truck some [unspecified quantity] explosive material, a homemade silencer
made of plastic pipes, two rifles, five pistols and 1,600 rounds of
ammunition. They also had a cannon fuse, a container labeled "riot smoke," a
night vision scope, a radio scanner, two bulletproof vests, and a manual
entitled "Militia Soldiers Operations Handbook. Could they have done some
damage? Yes. A terrorist revolution aborning? You decide. Bear in mind,
they were parked in a campground with this stuff on the very day on which
they were planning their "attack". Sounds more like The Three Stooges than
Three Days of the Condor.
Fact: There are lots of right-wing whackos out there (real 'edge of the
envelope' types, Harry, not the conservatives you love to denigrate here in
rec.boats), predominantly comprising ill-educated, disorganized losers who
simply don't want to be responsible. Their cohesive ideology consists, for
the most part, of anti-social personality traits and being p-o'd at the
government, jews, or blacks, in no particular order, because they can't make
their lives work. To compare these yahoos to any mid-east or other moslem
terror organization is ludicrous. As you are well aware, there are any
number of these islam based groups who proudly trumpet their cause, are
organized, well trained, financed, focused, and dedicated to their ideology.
These people are frightening and effective, as their record over the past
thirty plus (30+) years indicates. The intermittent burps occasioned by a
few disaffected whack jobs from the lunatic fringe in this country are
hardly comparable.
Post by Harry Krause
(As I have noted many times in the past, the threat to America comes
from the conservative right-wingers. This is more confirmation. HK)
No, Harry, this does not rise to the level of "confirmation". Not even
close.
Why, oh why, are you wasting your time?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!
John Gaquin
2004-01-02 23:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John H
Why, oh why, are you wasting your time?
Sorry, lost my head.
Doug Kanter
2004-01-03 00:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Gaquin
Post by John H
Why, oh why, are you wasting your time?
Sorry, lost my head.
Sure. You'll be back. :-)
Harry Krause
2004-01-02 19:17:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Gaquin
Post by Harry Krause
The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five
years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark
Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League.
This statement is outrageous on its face. The key would seem to be how Mr.
Pitcavage defines "domestic terrorist acts ". Is he really saying there
have been a greater number of terrorist acts within the United States,
perpetrated by Americans, than there have been outside the United States?
Depending upon how the term is defined, the statement may not be
outrageous.
Post by John Gaquin
Post by Harry Krause
*Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing
extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The
Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002.*
Key word: estimates. Maybe correct, maybe not at all.
Might be off by 25 per cent, eh? Could be more than 30,000 right-wing
extemist members or only 19,000. A comforting thought




Mr. Levitas has done
Post by John Gaquin
a lot of research and is recognized as an expert. But remember, he's also
selling books, and pumping numbers that are unverifyable is to his
advantage. And 250,000 "sympathizers"? What the hell does that mean?
Right-wingers who cheer on the more extreme right-wingers, of course.
Post by John Gaquin
Transparent and meaningless scare tactic to anyone who thinks. I'll bet
there were a couple of billion (with a 'B') people in the world who
"sympathized" with the plight of the Afghan and Iraqi peoples, but no one
did anything. Note the use of PC buzzwords -- "right-wing extremist" and
"hate groups". How are these defined in order to conduct an accurate count?
Why don't you try to find out?
Post by John Gaquin
Post by Harry Krause
... one of "the major terrorist plots of the 1990s" in which militia from
around
Post by Harry Krause
the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military
base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning
of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives.
Whoa!! Sounds like a couple of Brigades or so, ready to launch an organized
attack! Are Mr. Pitcavage and the ADL going for objectivity here? I think
not. The "...militia from around the country [that] converged in central
Texas..." comprised two (2) persons who were arrested at the aforementioned
campground, one (1) elsewhere nearby, and an estimated five (5) back in
Colorado and Kansas. When arrested, the two (2) men had in their pickup
truck some [unspecified quantity] explosive material, a homemade silencer
made of plastic pipes, two rifles, five pistols and 1,600 rounds of
ammunition. They also had a cannon fuse, a container labeled "riot smoke," a
night vision scope, a radio scanner, two bulletproof vests, and a manual
entitled "Militia Soldiers Operations Handbook. Could they have done some
damage? Yes. A terrorist revolution aborning? You decide. Bear in mind,
they were parked in a campground with this stuff on the very day on which
they were planning their "attack". Sounds more like The Three Stooges than
Three Days of the Condor.
Or the Bush Brothers out for a hunt.
Post by John Gaquin
Fact: There are lots of right-wing whackos out there (real 'edge of the
envelope' types, Harry, not the conservatives you love to denigrate here in
rec.boats), predominantly comprising ill-educated, disorganized losers who
simply don't want to be responsible.
Right-wing wackos *are* political conservatives, John. And several of
the conservatives who post here obviously are ill-educated, disorganized
losers who want to evade responsibility.



Their cohesive ideology consists, for
Post by John Gaquin
the most part, of anti-social personality traits and being p-o'd at the
government, jews, or blacks, in no particular order, because they can't make
their lives work.
Ahh, yes. Skipper used to denigrate blacks, Jews, and Hispanics. To the
obvious delight of many of the other righties in here, who rarely, if
ever, told him he was out of line. Skipper was a right-wing conservative.



To compare these yahoos to any mid-east or other moslem
Post by John Gaquin
terror organization is ludicrous.
Tell that to the victims of Oklahoma City, or to the survivors of
abortion doctors or clinic bombings. The perps are your boys,
conservatives.
Post by John Gaquin
Post by Harry Krause
(As I have noted many times in the past, the threat to America comes
from the conservative right-wingers. This is more confirmation. HK)
No, Harry, this does not rise to the level of "confirmation". Not even
close.
The terrorist acts under discussion are committed by conservative
right-wingers.
--
Email sent to ***@yahoo.com is never read.
Gould 0738
2004-01-02 16:36:49 UTC
Permalink
As reported in the Christian Science Monitor?

Now, really. Isn't that just some liberal, left wing, political rag with a
naked agenda?

Has to be, you know, since it dared to imply that in spite of Federal agents
Yellow, Orange, and Red enforcing the Patriot act hither and yon- weird, sick,
criminal bastards can still plot against the country from within our own
borders.

And in Texas no less! You would have thought Texas was pretty well fixed,
considering the identity of a recent governor.

Glad they caught this fool.
Had he set his bomb off and killed "thousands" 90% of the populace would soon
be blaming terorists said to be hiding in the next foreign country on the hit
list.
Between US casualties and "collateral" damage that could easily kill thousands
more.

It's a little scary that with all the government surveillance, it took a
misdelivered parcel to expose this dastardly plot.

Why would the extreme right want to propel us into another foreign war? In the
current environment, that would seem to be the certain result of any act of
domestic terrorism.
Clams Canino
2004-01-02 17:05:50 UTC
Permalink
My take too. But "what can you do"?? The surveillance is already
intrusive enough, many would say too intrusive. What's important is the
"little clues" that come up via "dumb luck" are followed up to the max. It
seems in this case that they were. I hope the lasting legacy of 9/11 is that
the stupid small clues *always* get the microscope as opposed to disnmissal.

But, if we're to have anything resembling a free society, I'm afraid it will
take some "dumb luck" to thwart terrorist plots, inside or outside ones. You
still need "probable cause" to start investigating someone, probable cause
is often first established with open eyes and a little luck.

Hats off to the doods that sorted this one out......... :)

-W
Post by Gould 0738
It's a little scary that with all the government surveillance, it took a
misdelivered parcel to expose this dastardly plot.
Harry Krause
2004-01-02 19:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clams Canino
My take too. But "what can you do"?? The surveillance is already
intrusive enough, many would say too intrusive. What's important is the
"little clues" that come up via "dumb luck" are followed up to the max. It
seems in this case that they were. I hope the lasting legacy of 9/11 is that
the stupid small clues *always* get the microscope as opposed to disnmissal.
But, if we're to have anything resembling a free society, I'm afraid it will
take some "dumb luck" to thwart terrorist plots, inside or outside ones. You
still need "probable cause" to start investigating someone, probable cause
is often first established with open eyes and a little luck.
Hats off to the doods that sorted this one out......... :)
-W
Post by Gould 0738
It's a little scary that with all the government surveillance, it took a
misdelivered parcel to expose this dastardly plot.
What it should tell you is that with all the Bush bullshit about
protecting the homeland, and all the fascist crap being spread around in
the name of protecting the homeland, we're no more safe than we were
prior to 9-11.

Bush's homeland security is a fraud. Just like Bush.
--
Email sent to ***@yahoo.com is never read.
John Gaquin
2004-01-02 23:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Krause
Bush's homeland security is a fraud.
Much like Ullico. Right, Harry?

Have you resigned yet, to try to salvage a little self-respect?
thunder
2004-01-02 17:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gould 0738
Glad they caught this fool.
Had he set his bomb off and killed "thousands" 90% of the populace would
soon be blaming terorists said to be hiding in the next foreign country on
the hit list.
Between US casualties and "collateral" damage that could easily kill
thousands more.
It's a little scary that with all the government surveillance, it took a
misdelivered parcel to expose this dastardly plot.
Even scarier is that he has had previous run ins with the law for weapons
violations. It is also possible that he made and sold other devices.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5350.htm

http://www.thememoryhole.org/terror/tyler-terror.htm
jps
2004-01-03 19:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Krause
Last month, an east Texas man pleaded guilty to possession of a weapon
of mass destruction. Inside the home and storage facilities of William
Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing
thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of
ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist
and antigovernment literature.
Sounds like he might be a close associate of Robert White.
Calif Bill
2004-01-03 19:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Post by jps
Post by Harry Krause
Last month, an east Texas man pleaded guilty to possession of a weapon
of mass destruction. Inside the home and storage facilities of William
Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing
thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of
ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist
and antigovernment literature.
Sounds like he might be a close associate of Robert White.
Gould 0738
2004-01-03 20:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years!
The extreme right pulled up even or ahead with OK City.

And the extreme right has been ahead all along if you count the KKK and other
conservative hate groups as domestic "terrorists".
Post by Calif Bill
The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Never heard of a group burning down "SUV" dealers. These days, isn't that just
about every dealer? Sure it isn't "insurance lightning"? :-)
Calif Bill
2004-01-04 18:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gould 0738
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years!
The extreme right pulled up even or ahead with OK City.
And the extreme right has been ahead all along if you count the KKK and other
conservative hate groups as domestic "terrorists".
Post by Calif Bill
The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Never heard of a group burning down "SUV" dealers. These days, isn't that just
about every dealer? Sure it isn't "insurance lightning"? :-)
OKIE city just increased the damage in one big instance, but quantity of
attacks is a different matter. Do a little research on Earth Liberation
Front and SUV's. http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/elf23_20030823.htm is
a starting point.
Bill
Doug Kanter
2004-01-05 01:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calif Bill
OKIE city just increased the damage in one big instance, but quantity of
attacks is a different matter. Do a little research on Earth Liberation
Front and SUV's. http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/elf23_20030823.htm is
a starting point.
Bill
Considering that you can get a tax break for buying Hummer, it seems to me
their sale is also a form of terrorism.
http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm

Before you say "WTF....if you can afford to pay for the gas...." - stop.
Only a dumb f**k says that. Just don't. It's not the point, and you know
that.
Harry Krause
2004-01-05 01:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Calif Bill
OKIE city just increased the damage in one big instance, but quantity of
attacks is a different matter. Do a little research on Earth Liberation
Front and SUV's. http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/elf23_20030823.htm
is
Post by Calif Bill
a starting point.
Bill
Considering that you can get a tax break for buying Hummer, it seems to me
their sale is also a form of terrorism.
http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm
Before you say "WTF....if you can afford to pay for the gas...." - stop.
Only a dumb f**k says that. Just don't. It's not the point, and you know
that.
It's an absurdity. In addition to dumping that juicy little loophole for
the rich, we ought to eliminate tax breaks or loopholes for actions that
result in the exportation of U.S. jobs. If that Mercedes is not at least
assembled in the USA, no tax credit. Building a computer chip plant in
India? No tax break. U.S. corporate tax breaks ought to be reserved
entirely for those actions that create and sustain jobs for residents of
the U.S.A.
--
Email sent to ***@yahoo.com is never read.
Calif Bill
2004-01-05 03:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Calif Bill
OKIE city just increased the damage in one big instance, but quantity of
attacks is a different matter. Do a little research on Earth Liberation
Front and SUV's. http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/elf23_20030823.htm
is
Post by Calif Bill
a starting point.
Bill
Considering that you can get a tax break for buying Hummer, it seems to me
their sale is also a form of terrorism.
http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm
Before you say "WTF....if you can afford to pay for the gas...." - stop.
Only a dumb f**k says that. Just don't. It's not the point, and you know
that.
Sure you can get a tax break on the Hummer. If it is used by a business.
Is a loophole in the law. Every law seems to have loopholes. And the rich
pay great CPA's to find them. IF your only complaint is the tax loophole,
you really are hard up for complaints. Fact is, not that many years ago we
all got tax breaks on car purchases. As well as a break on all interest and
sales taxes we paid.
Bill
Doug Kanter
2004-01-05 04:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Doug Kanter
Considering that you can get a tax break for buying Hummer, it seems to me
their sale is also a form of terrorism.
http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm
Before you say "WTF....if you can afford to pay for the gas...." - stop.
Only a dumb f**k says that. Just don't. It's not the point, and you know
that.
Sure you can get a tax break on the Hummer. If it is used by a business.
Is a loophole in the law. Every law seems to have loopholes. And the rich
pay great CPA's to find them. IF your only complaint is the tax loophole,
you really are hard up for complaints. Fact is, not that many years ago we
all got tax breaks on car purchases. As well as a break on all interest and
sales taxes we paid.
Bill
What is it....National Let's Miss the Point Day???

1) We're in a war over oil.
2) We were in a war over oil, in the same region, 12 years ago.
3) People get tax breaks for driving a car whose 10-12 mpg fuel consumption
is totally out of line with the needs of this country and the realities of
the oil supply.

There *is* no legitimate use for the Hummer, short of military purposes, or
a safari. Frankly, 90% of SUV owners don't use the vehicles according to
their design purposes, but that's another discussion.
Calif Bill
2004-01-05 04:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Doug Kanter
Considering that you can get a tax break for buying Hummer, it seems
to
Post by Doug Kanter
me
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Doug Kanter
their sale is also a form of terrorism.
http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm
Before you say "WTF....if you can afford to pay for the gas...." - stop.
Only a dumb f**k says that. Just don't. It's not the point, and you know
that.
Sure you can get a tax break on the Hummer. If it is used by a business.
Is a loophole in the law. Every law seems to have loopholes. And the
rich
Post by Calif Bill
pay great CPA's to find them. IF your only complaint is the tax loophole,
you really are hard up for complaints. Fact is, not that many years ago
we
Post by Calif Bill
all got tax breaks on car purchases. As well as a break on all interest
and
Post by Calif Bill
sales taxes we paid.
Bill
What is it....National Let's Miss the Point Day???
1) We're in a war over oil.
2) We were in a war over oil, in the same region, 12 years ago.
3) People get tax breaks for driving a car whose 10-12 mpg fuel consumption
is totally out of line with the needs of this country and the realities of
the oil supply.
There *is* no legitimate use for the Hummer, short of military purposes, or
a safari. Frankly, 90% of SUV owners don't use the vehicles according to
their design purposes, but that's another discussion.
Tow your boat with an Insite? Prius?
Doug Kanter
2004-01-05 06:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Doug Kanter
What is it....National Let's Miss the Point Day???
1) We're in a war over oil.
2) We were in a war over oil, in the same region, 12 years ago.
3) People get tax breaks for driving a car whose 10-12 mpg fuel
consumption
Post by Doug Kanter
is totally out of line with the needs of this country and the realities of
the oil supply.
There *is* no legitimate use for the Hummer, short of military purposes,
or
Post by Doug Kanter
a safari. Frankly, 90% of SUV owners don't use the vehicles according to
their design purposes, but that's another discussion.
Tow your boat with an Insite? Prius?
That's you & me. Towing is one good reason to own an SUV, especially since
it's almost impossible to find a rear-wheel drive car any more. I almost
bought a Crown Vic, until the "exploding gas tank" story hit the news. V-8
engine, and it would've gotten me 10 more mpg than my pickup, which has a
very efficient 6 cylinder motor. #2, below, is the reason for the extra
mileage.

I said 90% don't need to own an SUV. Think of how they're designed:

1) They have extra ground clearance for the rough terrain that's typical of
off-road use. Most owners don't need that. Most of the population doesn't
live where everyone's driveway is a mile of unpaved dirt with ruts on the
sides. You may here the excuse that "you could bottom out over a pile of
snow". Yeah. Right. In 20 years of driving front wheel drive cars in upstate
NY, that's NEVER happened to me, and I'll drive in any kind of weather.

2) They're geared for better low-end torque, and many have 4WD. This is
exactly the reason they get lousy gas mileage. Most owners don't need that
type of power train.

3) They give the illusion of better cold weather handling, but that's a
myth. There's a reason 2 yr old SUVs are lined up 5 rows deep in used car
lots, and that's here in upstate NY. On any bad day, we see just as many
SUVs in ditches as we do other cars.

4) Much stiffer suspensions: That's a real good thing to have when towing
something at 70 mph on a windy day. Look around you. Most SUVs are towing
nothing, and never do.

5) Buyer excuse: "They got more room for luggage. Family of four....we got a
lotta luggage". No. They don't, unless you're talking about the very largest
SUVs. Put 4 people in, and you have very little left behind that back seat.
Meanwhile, my neighbor gets a week's worth of camping crap into the trunk of
her Crown Vic and still has room for a couple of dead bodies. Starts it up,
the car auto-levels itself, and still hits 28 mpg on the highway. Most
minivans will approach that mpg rating, too, unless they're driven by
dummies.

Go camping much? I do. Most of the vehicles I see at campgrounds are sedans
& minivans. The SUVs are parked at the strip malls where their owners are
getting their nails done.

There has to be some explanation for the fact that in any typical parking
lot, you'll see 10 times more SUVs than you would've seen 20 years ago. I
guarantee that there aren't 10 times more people who actually need vehicles
with those design parameters.

Know what the solution is? Manufacturer them with a standard feature: A
normal transmission. Make a truck transmission available as a no-cost
option, with front wheel drive. Voila. Up goes the gas mileage. Keep the
price the same. The car makers will make more money because they'll be
charging for the higher priced tranny, even though 90% of the vehicles won't
have them. People like you & I might need to wait while the dealer locates a
vehicle with the truck tranny. Big deal. How often do you walk into a
dealership and say you need a car in 15 minutes? I had to wait 10 days for
my Tacoma because I wanted black, not white.

Resale value would be better. The door sticker would carry a code indicating
that "this is the soccer mom version". That would go far in reducing the
numbers of these things sitting in the used car lots. They're in the lots
because the original owners forgot to read the mileage sticker. Or, they got
advice from guys like my father. He has a big Mercury hog for some reason.
To quote him: "Nah...that sticker's all wrong. I'm gettin' at least 35 mpg.
The numbers on the sticker are always low, or the car maker might get in
trouble". (His hog is rated at 16, if I recall).

You know I'm right. :-) :-)
-v-
2004-01-07 00:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Kanter
That's you & me. Towing is one good reason to own an SUV,
The only reason I need is that I want to drive an SUV.
Its nobody else's business.
End of story.
--
-v-
Doug Kanter
2004-01-07 15:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by -v-
Post by Doug Kanter
That's you & me. Towing is one good reason to own an SUV,
The only reason I need is that I want to drive an SUV.
Its nobody else's business.
End of story.
--
-v-
Thanks. I forgot to mention guys like you, but I figured one of you would
come along eventually. By the way, you forgot to mention that your right to
be wasteful was granted by god and the constitution, and that only a fascist
would question that right.
-v-
2004-01-08 11:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by -v-
Post by Doug Kanter
That's you & me. Towing is one good reason to own an SUV,
The only reason I need is that I want to drive an SUV.
Its nobody else's business.
End of story.
--
-v-
Thanks. I forgot to mention guys like you, but I figured one of you would
come along eventually. By the way, you forgot to mention that your right to
be wasteful was granted by god and the constitution, and that only a fascist
would question that right.
Whatever. Its still none of your f'ing business.
--
Doug Kanter
2004-01-08 17:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by -v-
Post by Doug Kanter
That's you & me. Towing is one good reason to own an SUV,
The only reason I need is that I want to drive an SUV.
Its nobody else's business.
End of story.
--
-v-
Thanks. I forgot to mention guys like you, but I figured one of you would
come along eventually. By the way, you forgot to mention that your right
to
Post by Doug Kanter
be wasteful was granted by god and the constitution, and that only a
fascist
Post by Doug Kanter
would question that right.
Whatever. Its still none of your f'ing business.
I'd never make a law to STOP you from buying a hog of a vehicle, but I have
no problem with hassling you about it. Did you know that the amount of
particulate pollution created by EACH vehicle per year is measured in TONS?
Not a few cups, but TONS.

You must not have children, or you'd give a damn about the kind of world you
create for them. That's pretty damned selfish.
-v-
2004-01-08 19:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by -v-
Post by Doug Kanter
That's you & me. Towing is one good reason to own an SUV,
The only reason I need is that I want to drive an SUV.
Its nobody else's business.
End of story.
--
-v-
Thanks. I forgot to mention guys like you, but I figured one of you
would
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Doug Kanter
come along eventually. By the way, you forgot to mention that your right
to
Post by Doug Kanter
be wasteful was granted by god and the constitution, and that only a
fascist
Post by Doug Kanter
would question that right.
Whatever. Its still none of your f'ing business.
I'd never make a law to STOP you from buying a hog of a vehicle, but I have
no problem with hassling you about it. Did you know that the amount of
particulate pollution created by EACH vehicle per year is measured in TONS?
Not a few cups, but TONS.
You must not have children, or you'd give a damn about the kind of world you
create for them. That's pretty damned selfish.
Not your problem.
Doug Kanter
2004-01-08 21:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by -v-
Post by Doug Kanter
I'd never make a law to STOP you from buying a hog of a vehicle, but I
have
Post by Doug Kanter
no problem with hassling you about it. Did you know that the amount of
particulate pollution created by EACH vehicle per year is measured in
TONS?
Post by Doug Kanter
Not a few cups, but TONS.
You must not have children, or you'd give a damn about the kind of world
you
Post by Doug Kanter
create for them. That's pretty damned selfish.
Not your problem.
Oh. I see. Your pollutants somehow stay only in YOUR air, right? :-)

I have a neighbor like you. He's a throwaway.
Dave Hall
2004-01-09 12:04:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:37:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by -v-
Post by Doug Kanter
That's you & me. Towing is one good reason to own an SUV,
The only reason I need is that I want to drive an SUV.
Its nobody else's business.
End of story.
--
-v-
Thanks. I forgot to mention guys like you, but I figured one of you
would
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Doug Kanter
come along eventually. By the way, you forgot to mention that your right
to
Post by Doug Kanter
be wasteful was granted by god and the constitution, and that only a
fascist
Post by Doug Kanter
would question that right.
Whatever. Its still none of your f'ing business.
I'd never make a law to STOP you from buying a hog of a vehicle, but I have
no problem with hassling you about it. Did you know that the amount of
particulate pollution created by EACH vehicle per year is measured in TONS?
Not a few cups, but TONS.
I read somewhere that if you fart for 5 years straight, you'll produce
enough gas to equal the power of an atom bomb. So much for statistics.

There's something wrong there. Even if 100% of the weight of gasoline
were converted to emissions, it would not amount to more than a few
thousand pounds. How much particulate is really produced from the
burning of 600 or 700 gallons of fuel per year? My emissions reports
always indicate levels in the .0X% area. I think someone is spinning
figures again.

Dave
Post by Doug Kanter
You must not have children, or you'd give a damn about the kind of world you
create for them. That's pretty damned selfish.
My father drove around in a 1960's vintage Big Detroit monster. I
guess he didn't care either.
Doug Kanter
2004-01-09 15:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Hall
There's something wrong there. Even if 100% of the weight of gasoline
were converted to emissions, it would not amount to more than a few
thousand pounds. How much particulate is really produced from the
burning of 600 or 700 gallons of fuel per year? My emissions reports
always indicate levels in the .0X% area. I think someone is spinning
figures again.
Well, when you're a chemist, you come on back and discuss it some more,
y'all heah? :-)
Post by Dave Hall
Post by Doug Kanter
You must not have children, or you'd give a damn about the kind of world you
create for them. That's pretty damned selfish.
My father drove around in a 1960's vintage Big Detroit monster. I
guess he didn't care either.
Dave, you're not stupid, so why do you say stupid things? Were you in rush?
ALL our dads drove hogs because nobody knew any better at that point in
history.
Dave Hall
2004-01-09 16:59:06 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:00:49 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Dave Hall
There's something wrong there. Even if 100% of the weight of gasoline
were converted to emissions, it would not amount to more than a few
thousand pounds. How much particulate is really produced from the
burning of 600 or 700 gallons of fuel per year? My emissions reports
always indicate levels in the .0X% area. I think someone is spinning
figures again.
Well, when you're a chemist, you come on back and discuss it some more,
y'all heah? :-)
You don't have to be a chemist to realize that you don't get something
from nothing. When you consume a certain amount of weight in fuel,
most of the matter is converted to energy. What is left are the
by-products of that chemical reaction. This is where your
"particulates" come from. Usually these are a very small percentage of
the original volume in fuel. So I ask again, how can a 2 tons worth
of gasoline produce the same amount in weight of particulate
emissions?
Post by Doug Kanter
Post by Dave Hall
Post by Doug Kanter
You must not have children, or you'd give a damn about the kind of world
you
Post by Dave Hall
Post by Doug Kanter
create for them. That's pretty damned selfish.
My father drove around in a 1960's vintage Big Detroit monster. I
guess he didn't care either.
Dave, you're not stupid, so why do you say stupid things? Were you in rush?
ALL our dads drove hogs because nobody knew any better at that point in
history.
That's exactly my point. Until we have a better system to provide us
with transportation, we will use what we have. If my dad were still
with us, he'd still want a big car because that's what he was
comfortable with.

Current "advances" in MPG are little more than smoke and mirrors. The
basic fact is that it takes a certain amount of fuel to produce a
certain amount of horsepower. We haven't made much progress in the
area of extracting more power from less fuel. All we've done is lower
the demand for horsepower, by cutting weight and drag, and by
providing an alternate means of power to fill in during those times
when a conventional engine becomes less efficient. It's all about
power/weight ratio. The current crop of hybrid cars and small
econo-boxes look like a stiff wind would blow them over. I'd hate to
think what one would look like adorned on the front of a Mack Truck...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if they can produce a
vehicle, which is strong enough to haul and tow the weight that I
require (Strength = weight), powerful enough to move it sufficiently
(pulling requires torque, which requires more fuel), and it does so by
sipping a cupful of zero emissions fuel, then I'll buy one. But as it
stands now, you can't get there from here with our current technology.

Any improvement you get in MPG is had at the expense of something
else. Usually that something else is either structural strength or
available horsepower.

Dave
Doug Kanter
2004-01-09 17:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Hall
Post by Doug Kanter
Dave, you're not stupid, so why do you say stupid things? Were you in rush?
ALL our dads drove hogs because nobody knew any better at that point in
history.
That's exactly my point. Until we have a better system to provide us
with transportation, we will use what we have. If my dad were still
with us, he'd still want a big car because that's what he was
comfortable with.
AGAIN, you've gotten lost in a conversation. The guy I responded to said he
has the right to drive anything he damned well pleases, whether he tows
anything or not. He said he drives an SUV "just because he wants to".

So, your comment, "until we have a better system....", does not apply to
this small chunk of the discussion.

It's obvious that nobody is going to tow a boat with a hybrid vehicle from
Honda or Toyota.

Now, lay down.
Mark Browne
2004-01-10 08:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Hall
There's something wrong there. Even if 100% of the weight of gasoline
were converted to emissions, it would not amount to more than a few
thousand pounds. How much particulate is really produced from the
burning of 600 or 700 gallons of fuel per year? My emissions reports
always indicate levels in the .0X% area. I think someone is spinning
figures again.
Dave
Lets (hey hey hey) clear the air here!

Fuel combines with air to burn. Let me explain:
Assume you drive 10000 miles a year and your car gets 15 mpg.
According to CRC handbook, 28th edition, page 1446, gasoline weights 6.152
lb/gallon. This gives up a consumption of 4101 pounds a year.

Determining the composition of the fuel is rather tricky. Gasoline is
composed of a variety of compounds. They may be from the paraffin family,
with a molecular formation of CnH2n+2, or the asphalt family with compounds
of the forms CnH2n, CnH2n-2 and Cnh2n-4. There are the odd sulfur atoms and
some other tramp elements thrown in to make things interesting. Don't even
get me started on the additives.

Just to make things simple, assume that the gasoline in entirely composed of
the simplest paraffin, marsh gas, with the formula CH4.
This breaks down to 3076 pounds of carbon and 1025 pounds of hydrogen.

Further, assume perfect combustion.

The carbon combines with oxygen to produce CO2, The atomic weight of carbon
is about 12, and oxygen is about 16, so for every atom of carbon we get two
heavier atoms of oxygen, giving us 11278 pounds of CO2.

Every 2 hydrogen atoms (atomic weight of 1) combines with an oxygen atom.
this gives us 9228 pounds of water.
The combined weight of combustion products for 4101 pounds of fuel and
related air is 20507 pounds, or about 10 tons.

If I rerun this with solid paraffin (C20H42), I get 12798 pounds of CO2, and
5498 pounds of H2O, for a total emission of 18296 pounds. Real emissions
will fall somewhere between these two figures.

You can see that it *is* possible to get more pounds of tailpipe emissions
than you put in the tank.

The water is harmless; the 5.5 tons of CO2 may be of some concern.

This does not address the particulate question. The California Air Resource
board gives some interesting figures on particulate emissions.
See:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm
These range from 300 mg/mi for pre 1975 vehicles, to 21 mg/mi for 1986 and
later vehicles.

Lets assume that we are looking at a newer car, and using the same 10000
mile base, this gives 0.572 kg per year. This is about 1.3 pounds of gook
per year. Naturally, smoky diesel engines are going to make a *lot* more.

There are CO, sulphates and NOx compounds that are clearly not something
that you want in the air. This California site lists CO at 33 gram per mile
for a total of 727 pounds a year, and Nox at 1.3 grams per mile, for a total
of about 29 pounds a year.

Not tons, but not zero either. For millions of cars, this does add up.

Mark Browne
Doug Kanter
2004-01-10 13:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Browne
Post by Dave Hall
There's something wrong there. Even if 100% of the weight of gasoline
were converted to emissions, it would not amount to more than a few
thousand pounds. How much particulate is really produced from the
burning of 600 or 700 gallons of fuel per year? My emissions reports
always indicate levels in the .0X% area. I think someone is spinning
figures again.
Dave
Lets (hey hey hey) clear the air here!
Assume you drive 10000 miles a year and your car gets 15 mpg.
Thank you, Mark. But "assume" means this is what Dave likes to call a
"strawman". Good luck defending these facts.

-Doug (who wishes his chem teacher hadn't been a somnambulist)
Dave Hall
2004-01-13 13:15:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:02:09 GMT, "Mark Browne"
Post by Mark Browne
Post by Dave Hall
There's something wrong there. Even if 100% of the weight of gasoline
were converted to emissions, it would not amount to more than a few
thousand pounds. How much particulate is really produced from the
burning of 600 or 700 gallons of fuel per year? My emissions reports
always indicate levels in the .0X% area. I think someone is spinning
figures again.
Dave
Lets (hey hey hey) clear the air here!
Assume you drive 10000 miles a year and your car gets 15 mpg.
According to CRC handbook, 28th edition, page 1446, gasoline weights 6.152
lb/gallon. This gives up a consumption of 4101 pounds a year.
So far so good.
Post by Mark Browne
Determining the composition of the fuel is rather tricky. Gasoline is
composed of a variety of compounds. They may be from the paraffin family,
with a molecular formation of CnH2n+2, or the asphalt family with compounds
of the forms CnH2n, CnH2n-2 and Cnh2n-4. There are the odd sulfur atoms and
some other tramp elements thrown in to make things interesting. Don't even
get me started on the additives.
Ok, it's a deal.
Post by Mark Browne
Just to make things simple, assume that the gasoline in entirely composed of
the simplest paraffin, marsh gas, with the formula CH4.
This breaks down to 3076 pounds of carbon and 1025 pounds of hydrogen.
Ok, I'm still with you.
Post by Mark Browne
Further, assume perfect combustion.
Stoichiometric combustion ratios in automobiles typically run about
14.7:1 air:fuel.
Post by Mark Browne
The carbon combines with oxygen to produce CO2, The atomic weight of carbon
is about 12, and oxygen is about 16, so for every atom of carbon we get two
heavier atoms of oxygen, giving us 11278 pounds of CO2.
Now is where I start to have a problem. Maybe it's in the semantics,
but CO2 weighs less than liquid gasoline. It's a gas!
Post by Mark Browne
Every 2 hydrogen atoms (atomic weight of 1) combines with an oxygen atom.
this gives us 9228 pounds of water.
The combined weight of combustion products for 4101 pounds of fuel and
related air is 20507 pounds, or about 10 tons.
I think I see where the problem is. You are dealing in atomic weight,
where I am thinking in terms of actual measurable weight.
Post by Mark Browne
If I rerun this with solid paraffin (C20H42), I get 12798 pounds of CO2, and
5498 pounds of H2O, for a total emission of 18296 pounds. Real emissions
will fall somewhere between these two figures.
You can see that it *is* possible to get more pounds of tailpipe emissions
than you put in the tank.
Yes, you can, (if you think in terms of atomic weight) but we were
talking about "particulates". I do not consider CO2 gas and H2O to be
"particulates". The term "particulate" to me, implies a solid material
(such as carbon), and that is why I had a problem with the whole
opening statement.
Post by Mark Browne
The water is harmless; the 5.5 tons of CO2 may be of some concern.
Not if you're a plant. ;-)

Maybe instead of clearing so many forests we should plant more?
Post by Mark Browne
This does not address the particulate question. The California Air Resource
board gives some interesting figures on particulate emissions.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm
These range from 300 mg/mi for pre 1975 vehicles, to 21 mg/mi for 1986 and
later vehicles.
Lets assume that we are looking at a newer car, and using the same 10000
mile base, this gives 0.572 kg per year. This is about 1.3 pounds of gook
per year. Naturally, smoky diesel engines are going to make a *lot* more.
That's true. That's why a diesel has a more "sooty" smoke.
Post by Mark Browne
There are CO, sulphates and NOx compounds that are clearly not something
that you want in the air. This California site lists CO at 33 gram per mile
for a total of 727 pounds a year, and Nox at 1.3 grams per mile, for a total
of about 29 pounds a year.
Not tons, but not zero either. For millions of cars, this does add up.
No arguments. I do not want to give the impression that cars do not
pollute. I just have a problem with environmentalists using vague or
confusing terms out of context to incite what I like to call the
"chicken little" phenomenon in the public.

Thank you for your insight Mark.

Dave
Post by Mark Browne
Mark Browne
John H
2004-01-13 14:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Hall
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:02:09 GMT, "Mark Browne"
Post by Mark Browne
Post by Dave Hall
There's something wrong there. Even if 100% of the weight of gasoline
were converted to emissions, it would not amount to more than a few
thousand pounds. How much particulate is really produced from the
burning of 600 or 700 gallons of fuel per year? My emissions reports
always indicate levels in the .0X% area. I think someone is spinning
figures again.
Dave
Lets (hey hey hey) clear the air here!
Assume you drive 10000 miles a year and your car gets 15 mpg.
According to CRC handbook, 28th edition, page 1446, gasoline weights 6.152
lb/gallon. This gives up a consumption of 4101 pounds a year.
So far so good.
Post by Mark Browne
Determining the composition of the fuel is rather tricky. Gasoline is
composed of a variety of compounds. They may be from the paraffin family,
with a molecular formation of CnH2n+2, or the asphalt family with compounds
of the forms CnH2n, CnH2n-2 and Cnh2n-4. There are the odd sulfur atoms and
some other tramp elements thrown in to make things interesting. Don't even
get me started on the additives.
Ok, it's a deal.
Post by Mark Browne
Just to make things simple, assume that the gasoline in entirely composed of
the simplest paraffin, marsh gas, with the formula CH4.
This breaks down to 3076 pounds of carbon and 1025 pounds of hydrogen.
Ok, I'm still with you.
Post by Mark Browne
Further, assume perfect combustion.
Stoichiometric combustion ratios in automobiles typically run about
14.7:1 air:fuel.
Post by Mark Browne
The carbon combines with oxygen to produce CO2, The atomic weight of carbon
is about 12, and oxygen is about 16, so for every atom of carbon we get two
heavier atoms of oxygen, giving us 11278 pounds of CO2.
Now is where I start to have a problem. Maybe it's in the semantics,
but CO2 weighs less than liquid gasoline. It's a gas!
Post by Mark Browne
Every 2 hydrogen atoms (atomic weight of 1) combines with an oxygen atom.
this gives us 9228 pounds of water.
The combined weight of combustion products for 4101 pounds of fuel and
related air is 20507 pounds, or about 10 tons.
I think I see where the problem is. You are dealing in atomic weight,
where I am thinking in terms of actual measurable weight.
Post by Mark Browne
If I rerun this with solid paraffin (C20H42), I get 12798 pounds of CO2, and
5498 pounds of H2O, for a total emission of 18296 pounds. Real emissions
will fall somewhere between these two figures.
You can see that it *is* possible to get more pounds of tailpipe emissions
than you put in the tank.
Yes, you can, (if you think in terms of atomic weight) but we were
talking about "particulates". I do not consider CO2 gas and H2O to be
"particulates". The term "particulate" to me, implies a solid material
(such as carbon), and that is why I had a problem with the whole
opening statement.
Post by Mark Browne
The water is harmless; the 5.5 tons of CO2 may be of some concern.
Not if you're a plant. ;-)
Maybe instead of clearing so many forests we should plant more?
Post by Mark Browne
This does not address the particulate question. The California Air Resource
board gives some interesting figures on particulate emissions.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm
These range from 300 mg/mi for pre 1975 vehicles, to 21 mg/mi for 1986 and
later vehicles.
Lets assume that we are looking at a newer car, and using the same 10000
mile base, this gives 0.572 kg per year. This is about 1.3 pounds of gook
per year. Naturally, smoky diesel engines are going to make a *lot* more.
That's true. That's why a diesel has a more "sooty" smoke.
Post by Mark Browne
There are CO, sulphates and NOx compounds that are clearly not something
that you want in the air. This California site lists CO at 33 gram per mile
for a total of 727 pounds a year, and Nox at 1.3 grams per mile, for a total
of about 29 pounds a year.
Not tons, but not zero either. For millions of cars, this does add up.
No arguments. I do not want to give the impression that cars do not
pollute. I just have a problem with environmentalists using vague or
confusing terms out of context to incite what I like to call the
"chicken little" phenomenon in the public.
Thank you for your insight Mark.
Dave
Post by Mark Browne
Mark Browne
Thanks to both of you guys! I'm not a chemist and found your posts,
especially yours, Mark, most enlightening. The effort put into the
discussion is appreciated. I assume most of what you've said is
applicable to my 5.7L I/O, so it was even boating related!

Nice work.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!
Joe Parsons
2004-01-05 18:07:44 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 04:46:45 GMT, "Calif Bill" <***@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

[snip]
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Doug Kanter
a safari. Frankly, 90% of SUV owners don't use the vehicles according to
their design purposes, but that's another discussion.
Tow your boat with an Insite? Prius?
Having recently acquired a trailerable boat (Four Winns 195 Sundowner), I had to
make a decision about a tow vehicle. My current stable of vehicles consists of
a Saturn (31 mpg), a Saab 9-3 (26 mpg) and a BMW R1100RS motorcycle (42+ mpg).

Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have elected to
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat. My last
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled the 3800 lb
boat and trailer quite competently.

A bit different from the Hummer's 10 or so--and I haven't had to give up my less
thirsty regular vehicles.

Joe Parsons
Clams Canino
2004-01-05 18:18:39 UTC
Permalink
You don't use your boat enough then. :)

-W
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have elected to
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat.
Joe Parsons
2004-01-05 21:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clams Canino
You don't use your boat enough then. :)
I leave it in the water--along with the other two. :)

Joe Parsons
Post by Clams Canino
-W
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have elected
to
Post by Joe Parsons
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat.
Bert Robbins
2004-01-06 00:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have elected to
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat. My last
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled the 3800 lb
boat and trailer quite competently.
What size engine is in the F150's that allows you 22+ MPB pulling a 3800 lb.
load?

Bert
Joe Parsons
2004-01-06 00:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have elected
to
Post by Joe Parsons
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat. My
last
Post by Joe Parsons
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled the
3800 lb
Post by Joe Parsons
boat and trailer quite competently.
What size engine is in the F150's that allows you 22+ MPB pulling a 3800 lb.
load?
I think it was a 4.3L V6, but I'm not sure. I am sure about the mileage,
though, measured over a trip of about 90 miles total.

Joe Parsons
NOYB
2004-01-06 00:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have elected
to
Post by Joe Parsons
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat.
My
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
last
Post by Joe Parsons
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled the
3800 lb
Post by Joe Parsons
boat and trailer quite competently.
What size engine is in the F150's that allows you 22+ MPB pulling a 3800 lb.
load?
I think it was a 4.3L V6, but I'm not sure. I am sure about the mileage,
though, measured over a trip of about 90 miles total.
22mpg while towing 3800lbs? LOL. Ford only claims 15mpg/19mpg
(city/highway)...AND NOT WHEN TOWING A BOAT!

Was your boat trailer self-propelled?
Joe Parsons
2004-01-06 01:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have
elected
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
to
Post by Joe Parsons
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat.
My
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
last
Post by Joe Parsons
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled
the
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
3800 lb
Post by Joe Parsons
boat and trailer quite competently.
What size engine is in the F150's that allows you 22+ MPB pulling a 3800
lb.
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
load?
I think it was a 4.3L V6, but I'm not sure. I am sure about the mileage,
though, measured over a trip of about 90 miles total.
22mpg while towing 3800lbs? LOL. Ford only claims 15mpg/19mpg
(city/highway)...AND NOT WHEN TOWING A BOAT!
[shrug]

That's what I got.

Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Was your boat trailer self-propelled?
Joe
2004-01-06 03:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by NOYB
22mpg while towing 3800lbs? LOL. Ford only claims 15mpg/19mpg
(city/highway)...AND NOT WHEN TOWING A BOAT!
He's FOS.
basskisser
2004-01-09 14:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Bert Robbins
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have
elected
to
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Bert Robbins
Post by Joe Parsons
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat.
My
last
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Bert Robbins
Post by Joe Parsons
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled
the
3800 lb
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Bert Robbins
Post by Joe Parsons
boat and trailer quite competently.
What size engine is in the F150's that allows you 22+ MPB pulling a 3800
lb.
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Bert Robbins
load?
I think it was a 4.3L V6, but I'm not sure. I am sure about the mileage,
though, measured over a trip of about 90 miles total.
22mpg while towing 3800lbs? LOL. Ford only claims 15mpg/19mpg
(city/highway)...AND NOT WHEN TOWING A BOAT!
Was your boat trailer self-propelled?
Don't suppose you, after making that statement realize how
manufacturer's, by law, come up with those numbers, huh? If you did,
you'd understand that they are averages. If you did, you understand
that those averages are weighted. If you did, you'd understand that
those averages are just that, meaning different trim models, different
gear ratios, etc.
Bert Robbins
2004-01-06 02:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have elected
to
Post by Joe Parsons
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat.
My
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
last
Post by Joe Parsons
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled the
3800 lb
Post by Joe Parsons
boat and trailer quite competently.
What size engine is in the F150's that allows you 22+ MPB pulling a 3800 lb.
load?
I think it was a 4.3L V6, but I'm not sure. I am sure about the mileage,
though, measured over a trip of about 90 miles total.
My 2001 5.4L V8 gets about 20 MPG on the highway year round. In the winter
around town I get about 13.5 MPG using the damned oxygenated gas.

Bert
Calif Bill
2004-01-06 03:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
Since I couldn't justify increasing my stable by one more, I have
elected
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
to
Post by Joe Parsons
rent a truck--typically a Ford F150--whenever I need to tow the boat.
My
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
last
Post by Joe Parsons
outing, the rental Ford turned in a respectable 22+ mpg, and handled
the
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
3800 lb
Post by Joe Parsons
boat and trailer quite competently.
What size engine is in the F150's that allows you 22+ MPB pulling a
3800
Post by Joe Parsons
lb.
Post by Joe Parsons
Post by Joe Parsons
load?
I think it was a 4.3L V6, but I'm not sure. I am sure about the mileage,
though, measured over a trip of about 90 miles total.
My 2001 5.4L V8 gets about 20 MPG on the highway year round. In the winter
around town I get about 13.5 MPG using the damned oxygenated gas.
Bert
In California and the SF Bay area and L.A. area it is damned oxygenated gas
everyday of the year. I get about 14.5 on my 99 Expedition 4x4 average town
and highway. Most I ever saw was 16.5 driving LA NorCal at about 55 mph on
I-5. Getting gas in Nevada, I see about 2 mpg more than California gas.
Even my daughters 2 wheel drive Explorer 4.6L only gets about 19 mpg. Most
of the SUV's are the station wagons of the 2000's. And most are 2 wheel
drive.
Bill
jps
2004-01-03 21:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's see, is it "actually" (statement of truth) or "probably" (a feeble
assertion). I'm surprised you didn't cite PETA in your baseless claim
of "terrorism."

How about we break it down a little further into "terrorism with the aim
of killing human beings."

Between the KKK and Timothy McVeigh, the right makes the left look like
pikers when it comes to sacrificing human life.

jps
basskisser
2004-01-05 13:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's see, is it "actually" (statement of truth) or "probably" (a feeble
assertion). I'm surprised you didn't cite PETA in your baseless claim
of "terrorism."
How about we break it down a little further into "terrorism with the aim
of killing human beings."
Between the KKK and Timothy McVeigh, the right makes the left look like
pikers when it comes to sacrificing human life.
jps
You're forgetting one of the biggest and most dangerous domestic
menace yet, John Ashcroft.
Harry Krause
2004-01-05 23:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's see, is it "actually" (statement of truth) or "probably" (a feeble
assertion). I'm surprised you didn't cite PETA in your baseless claim
of "terrorism."
How about we break it down a little further into "terrorism with the aim
of killing human beings."
Between the KKK and Timothy McVeigh, the right makes the left look like
pikers when it comes to sacrificing human life.
jps
You're forgetting one of the biggest and most dangerous domestic
menace yet, John Ashcroft.
That would be Generalissimo Ashcroft, the neoFascist.
--
Email sent to ***@yahoo.com is never read.
NOYB
2004-01-05 23:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's see, is it "actually" (statement of truth) or "probably" (a feeble
assertion). I'm surprised you didn't cite PETA in your baseless claim
of "terrorism."
How about we break it down a little further into "terrorism with the aim
of killing human beings."
Between the KKK and Timothy McVeigh, the right makes the left look like
pikers when it comes to sacrificing human life.
jps
You're forgetting one of the biggest and most dangerous domestic
menace yet, John Ashcroft.
That would be Generalissimo Ashcroft, the neoFascist.
Fate is funny, don't 'cha think? Mel Carson dies in a plane crash.
Democrats fight to allow he wife to replace him on the ballot. A liberal
Democrat-appointed judge orders the polling booths open for an extra two
hours in predominantly black, Democratic St. Louis. Ashcroft becomes
AG...and your party's own dishonesty put him there!
Harry Krause
2004-01-05 23:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by
the
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First,
and in
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group
that is
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been
hundreds
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's see, is it "actually" (statement of truth) or "probably" (a
feeble
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
assertion). I'm surprised you didn't cite PETA in your baseless claim
of "terrorism."
How about we break it down a little further into "terrorism with the
aim
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
of killing human beings."
Between the KKK and Timothy McVeigh, the right makes the left look like
pikers when it comes to sacrificing human life.
jps
You're forgetting one of the biggest and most dangerous domestic
menace yet, John Ashcroft.
That would be Generalissimo Ashcroft, the neoFascist.
Fate is funny, don't 'cha think? Mel Carson dies in a plane crash.
Democrats fight to allow he wife to replace him on the ballot. A liberal
Democrat-appointed judge orders the polling booths open for an extra two
hours in predominantly black, Democratic St. Louis. Ashcroft becomes
AG...and your party's own dishonesty put him there!
Hey...you're a young man. The fascism being implemented by Bush and
Ashcroft will bear sweet fruit when you're sent to a concentration camp
in 20 years.
--
Email sent to ***@yahoo.com is never read.
NOYB
2004-01-06 00:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by
the
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First,
and in
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group
that is
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been
hundreds
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's see, is it "actually" (statement of truth) or "probably" (a
feeble
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
assertion). I'm surprised you didn't cite PETA in your baseless claim
of "terrorism."
How about we break it down a little further into "terrorism with the
aim
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
of killing human beings."
Between the KKK and Timothy McVeigh, the right makes the left look like
pikers when it comes to sacrificing human life.
jps
You're forgetting one of the biggest and most dangerous domestic
menace yet, John Ashcroft.
That would be Generalissimo Ashcroft, the neoFascist.
Fate is funny, don't 'cha think? Mel Carson dies in a plane crash.
Democrats fight to allow he wife to replace him on the ballot. A liberal
Democrat-appointed judge orders the polling booths open for an extra two
hours in predominantly black, Democratic St. Louis. Ashcroft becomes
AG...and your party's own dishonesty put him there!
Hey...you're a young man. The fascism being implemented by Bush and
Ashcroft will bear sweet fruit when you're sent to a concentration camp
in 20 years.
How? As a dentist for the guards and inmates? Remember, I'm one of "them".
Don't worry, I'll be gentle if I stumble upon your wretched mouth.
jps
2004-01-07 06:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been
by
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Calif Bill
the
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth
First,
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Calif Bill
and in
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other
group
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Calif Bill
that is
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been
hundreds
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
Post by Calif Bill
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's see, is it "actually" (statement of truth) or "probably" (a
feeble
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
assertion). I'm surprised you didn't cite PETA in your baseless
claim
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
of "terrorism."
How about we break it down a little further into "terrorism with the
aim
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
of killing human beings."
Between the KKK and Timothy McVeigh, the right makes the left look
like
Post by Harry Krause
Post by Calif Bill
Post by Harry Krause
Post by basskisser
Post by jps
pikers when it comes to sacrificing human life.
jps
You're forgetting one of the biggest and most dangerous domestic
menace yet, John Ashcroft.
That would be Generalissimo Ashcroft, the neoFascist.
Fate is funny, don't 'cha think? Mel Carson dies in a plane crash.
Democrats fight to allow he wife to replace him on the ballot. A liberal
Democrat-appointed judge orders the polling booths open for an extra two
hours in predominantly black, Democratic St. Louis. Ashcroft becomes
AG...and your party's own dishonesty put him there!
Hey...you're a young man. The fascism being implemented by Bush and
Ashcroft will bear sweet fruit when you're sent to a concentration camp
in 20 years.
How? As a dentist for the guards and inmates? Remember, I'm one of "them".
Don't worry, I'll be gentle if I stumble upon your wretched mouth.
Yup, I can see you as an SS dentist...

You fit perfectly.
Don White
2004-01-07 17:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Yes....Dr NOYB always reminds me of the sadistic dentist in 'Marathon Man'
I can see Dustin Hoffman strapped to his chair in Florida waiting to have
holes drilled into his unfrozen teeth.
Post by jps
Yup, I can see you as an SS dentist...
You fit perfectly.
Doug Kanter
2004-01-03 23:43:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calif Bill
Actually probably 90% of the domestic terrorist activity has been by the
extreme left over the last 30-40 years! The Weathermen, Earth First, and in
more current times ALF (Animal Liberation Front) and the other group that is
burning down SUV car dealers and the SUV's in the lots. Have been hundreds
of millions of dollars and some deaths from their actions.
Bill
Let's not forget those nice folks who gun down doctors in the name of "Pro
Life". :-)

It seems we're all human, doesn't it?
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